tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1420149012024426620.post5337236772173572404..comments2024-03-12T20:39:46.618-04:00Comments on Hot Corner Harbor: How Big Should the Hall of Fame Be?Theohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07356047156527558873noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1420149012024426620.post-31022915747794470762019-07-27T16:21:55.340-04:002019-07-27T16:21:55.340-04:00And since the argument is that the writers are sti...And since the argument is that the writers are stingier now, it should be noted that the reason the BBWAA voted every other year in the late 50s to the mid 60s was because the writers complained in 1956 that recent inductees weren't up to the standards of earlier ones, and that there was a lack of strong candidates on the ballot. These being the same people who had just taken eight ballots to elect Hank Greenberg, and nine ballots to elect Joe Cronin (who, coincidentally, has Barry Larkin as his most similar player on B-R.com).<br />Now, taking that long to elect obvious candidates can easily be explained by stacked ballots, the fact not only didn't ask for more votes per ballot but actually asked to NOT VOTE AS OFTEN because they thought there weren't enough strong candidates tells the opposite story.Tristonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03554496126992675035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1420149012024426620.post-82817886300033059512019-07-27T16:16:56.173-04:002019-07-27T16:16:56.173-04:00OK, so I had a long diatribe, then realized I forg...OK, so I had a long diatribe, then realized I forgot something and wanted to go back and make sure it didn't screw up my point and make me look stupid.<br />It did not.<br />Alright, so according to my research the last player active in 1930 to be elected by the writers was Red Ruffing, elected in 1967. The first players active in 1930 were elected in 1936, so just look at that right there- 1930 was represented on the ballot for three decades. [For comparison, the first players who retired in 1990 were on the ballot in 1996, and the last player on the ballot active in 1990 will be Omar Vizquel, so 2027 if he isn't elected by then. Huh, also three decades. Possibly coincidence, but I would've thought that the Hall shrinking eligibility from 30 years retired before 1964 to 15 years now would make a big difference.]<br />So at what rate were the players from 1930 being elected BY THE WRITERS?<br />Between 1936 and 1967, the writers elected 40 players. Nine of those years had no BBWAA elections, so factoring that in, writers averaged 1.74 players elected per election. [Remember, that's NOT including the years they didn't vote, so there are no artificial blanks lowering the weight.]<br />By comparison, the writers have elected 41 players since 2000, and 46 players in the past 22 elections--an average of 2.1 players elected per election in the same number of, er, elections.Tristonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03554496126992675035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1420149012024426620.post-89911281363482181032019-07-27T15:49:16.097-04:002019-07-27T15:49:16.097-04:00Some of that jump in 1925 and 1930 can be explaine...Some of that jump in 1925 and 1930 can be explained by pointing out that Frankie Frisch's career was from 1919 to 1937.Tristonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03554496126992675035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1420149012024426620.post-63225395941891912862019-07-27T15:40:51.029-04:002019-07-27T15:40:51.029-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Tristonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03554496126992675035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1420149012024426620.post-51712687913745787932019-07-27T15:30:59.443-04:002019-07-27T15:30:59.443-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Tristonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03554496126992675035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1420149012024426620.post-13171621714835818342012-07-30T16:46:06.634-04:002012-07-30T16:46:06.634-04:00Ok, good point. I didn't realize you were jump...Ok, good point. I didn't realize you were jumping right in to the controversial stuff. <br /><br />In a way, it is fair to hold up older players; they did dominate the competition they faced, and it's not their fault that the competition just wasn't as good as today. Hoever, at the same time, it shouldn't be done at the expense of recognizing the talent that exists today. I think that's the bigger issue. The Hall wants to recognize so many older players despite there being fewer to choose from, yet has actually become tougher on the standards for more modern players despite the corresponding increase in choices of who to recognize.Theohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07356047156527558873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1420149012024426620.post-90100059356521069012012-07-30T15:53:29.196-04:002012-07-30T15:53:29.196-04:00Actually, I really meant Paul Waner. Lloyd has no...Actually, I really meant Paul Waner. Lloyd has no business being in the Hall, and Paul is a no-brainer based on his numbers, but given the difference between the quality of competition in the 1930s and today, it's possible that someone as dominant as Paul Waner would have a hard time making a team today. <br /><br />Olympic records get broken every year. We run faster, lift more weight, jump higher, and swim faster every year than we did in the past, yet people hold up idols from 100 years ago as the greatest ever because they dominated weaker competition.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1420149012024426620.post-8620230621917068972012-07-20T14:40:57.289-04:002012-07-20T14:40:57.289-04:001) I agree with the bad Veterans Committee thing. ...1) I agree with the bad Veterans Committee thing. I didn't want to go too in depth with why certain players got elected. However, the VC has never again reached the points it did during the Frankie Frisch years (with good reason, though). Although they probably will let players in later, it probably won't be a substantial number. I mean, they already been passing on several deserving players (like Ted Simmons or Luis Tiant) for years now.<br /><br />2) Good point on the Negro Leagues. It would be tough to fully account for them with the incomplete records, but it is interesting to consider.<br /><br />3) Also agree on that point. I think the Hall should reflect the best in the league at the time, though. I'm guessing you meant Lloyd Waner: totally agree on that one. Paul was a solid Hall choice.<br />Similarly: who exactly looked at Tommy McCarthy and said, "That right there is a Hall of Famer, and we need to put him in pronto"?Theohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07356047156527558873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1420149012024426620.post-14037987481105819212012-07-20T13:16:17.722-04:002012-07-20T13:16:17.722-04:00Theo, I love this analysis and I couldn't agre...Theo, I love this analysis and I couldn't agree more with your conclusion. It gets exponentially harder every decade to become a Hall of Famer for several reasons. A few points I think you missed:<br />1) Most of the bad/borderline Hall of Fame elections were made by the Veterans Committee. Players who retired in the '90s and '00s haven't had a chance to test the VC ballot yet. Even if the VC has gotten more stringent in recent years, I can't see them keeping Alan Trammell-types out.<br />2) It seems that your analysis includes only MLB players, so when you say there were more players elected before WWII, remember that there were even *more* inducted than you're counting, since there are many (mostly deserving, I'm sure) Negro Leaguers in the Hall as well. The Hall never seemed to adjust for the fact that, starting in the late '40s, MLB represented much more talent than it had beforehand.<br />3) Internationalization has had the same effect as racial desegregation in terms of growing the talent pool and making it harder to stand out. It's easy to say Tommy McCarthy wouldn't even make a major league roster today. I think it's possible that Paul Waner wouldn't make a major league roster with all the growth in the talent pool in the last 80 years. Yet McCarthy and Waner are in the Hall, while Albert Belle and Kevin Brown couldn't even stay on the ballot.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com